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RE: (erielack) RE: LCL Traffic
Regarding Jim G's post:
From the estate of a close friend, via his wife, I recently received a 1973 booklet entitled:
"ERIE LACKAWANNA RAILROAD COMPANY
THROUGH FREIGHT TRAIN CLASSIFICATIONS, TIMES, AND CONNECTIONS"
[I'd rather have the friend back . . . ]
Reference NY-99 it says:
Classification:
102. N&W St Louis
109. Santa Fe
108. Burlington Nor.
107. Rock Island
105. Milwaukee
110. C&EI
110. Forwarder CHGO
111. TOFC/COFD CHGO
E L Connections
Point Train
Marion NW-1
SFE-97
BN-99
BRC-47
MILW-97
SGL
> -----Original Message-----
> From: erielack-owner_@_lists.elhts.org
> [mailto:erielack-owner_@_lists.elhts.org] On Behalf Of JG at
> graytrainpix
> Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 11:37 AM
> To: doctorpb_@_bellsouth.net; erielack@lists.railfan.net
> Subject: (erielack) RE: LCL Traffic
>
> Paul B and all other operations enthusiasts,
>
> I'm not an expert on freight forwarders, but some previous
> posts on this List from Artie Erdman, Bob Bahrs and others
> give a general picture. Bob outlines Acme operations on the
> DL&W in the 50s, with consolidation facilities in Manhattan,
> Hoboken, Newark and Athenia (Clifton on the Boonton Line).
> Artie discusses the forwarder boxcar block on NY-99 from the
> late 60s up to about '72. He remembers the boxcar block at
> the rear of the train, just ahead of the caboose; in '71 and
> '72, I recall seeing it on the head end. We're probably both
> right, given the frequent shifts in EL operating patterns.
> Artie also recalled Acme shipments out of Orange St.
> Yard in Newark on the Morris & Essex; the Pusher crew would
> take them down to Croxton for NY99 sometime around 7 or 8 PM.
> In EL in Color 4, Canfield discusses forwarder traffic out
> of Lifshultz at 28th Street in Manhattan, even provides a
> picture. Canfield also discusses the evening carfloat out of
> 28th Street to allow Lifshultz cars to make NY99 (and how NY
> Division management would have to get VP Ops Gary White in
> Cleveland involved if it got delayed; classic micromanagement).
>
> I'm not sure about where the forwarders were located in the
> Hoboken / Jersey City complex. I vaguely remember an Acme
> Fast Freight building somewhere in Hoboken, remember the
> distinctive circle and arrow emblem. This is also more of a
> question than an answer, but I recall occasionally being at
> Hoboken Terminal around 8pm during the summers of 69 and 70,
> walking out to the end of the platforms and watching a 300 or
> 400 switcher come down to the freighthouse on the north side
> of the engine area. The crew would switch it out, then leave
> for Grove Street and the float yard with a small cut of
> boxcars. Could those also have been headed for NY99 with
> traffic from a consolidator using the freight house? The
> Hoboken freight house was a big facility with lots of truck
> bays out on Observer Highway, so it would seem possible.
>
> I'm gonna guess that by the late 60s, practically all boxcar
> forwarder traffic was for Chicago (unless one of the
> companies still had a siding and dock in Akron or
> Youngstown). I remember in 1971 and 72 sometimes going to
> the Williamson Library at Grand Central for the Friday night
> RRE slideshow with some railfan brethren, and we'd stop in at
> the Hoboken Dispatcher's Office while waiting for a train
> home (we hardly had any credentials, but as J. David Ingles
> said in an article about railfanning in the 60s and early
> 70s, "they don't call these the glory days without reason").
> That would be around 10PM, and I would sometimes watch the
> teletype outside of the chief's cubicle start up and spew out
> the consist of NY-99. I recall seeing boxcar numbers come
> out first (almost always EL), and they were all listed as
> Chicago cars.
>
> Forwarder traffic did appear to be mostly westbound; my vague
> recollections of seeing NY-100 in the early 70s (either
> running late, or while I was working a 3rd trick during the
> summer) is that it sometimes had a few boxcars, but often
> didn't; whereas the boxcar block on NY-99 was a regular
> feature until after 1972. Another guess here, but I've read
> that the eastern carriers preferred westbound forwarder
> traffic over eastbound, as most eastern roads (including the
> EL) had an imbalance of eastbound loads.
> Westbound forwarder traffic was a good use for some of the
> accumulated empty boxcars in Croxton, that otherwise had to
> go west empty on an Ordinary (or X-1, back in the mid-60s).
> I'm not sure if the ICC and Rate Bureaus allowed it, but the
> EL and other carriers might have offered boxcar forwarders
> lower rates (or better service) for westbound shipments, thus
> explaining why NY-100 often ran all-TOFC while the 99
> regularly had forwarder boxcars.
>
> This is a bit sketchy and not 100% accurate, but that's part
> of the back-and-forth dialectic process by which we seek
> historical accuracy (recall the great debate about the MoTown
> bumping block, and how the truth was eventually reached - all
> part of the process). Awaiting further clarifications / corrections.
>
> Jim G.
>
> >
> >I have some questions about LCL for Jim and the group, but first a
> >little background.
> >
> >In the 1950's, RR's began shifting this unprofitable traffic
> to third
> >parties, ie the freight forwarders and consolidators, who had less
> >costly labor arrangements. These included companies like Acme and
> >Clipper; Erie and then EL used Lifschultz Fast Freight and Clipper
> >Carloading (and possibly others). In the 1960's this traffic largely
> >shifted from boxcars to TOFC.
> >By
> >the 1970's EL was one of very few roads that still handled
> LCL in boxcars.
> >
> >Here are my questions concerning this traffic in the 1970's:
> >
> >1. Were other cities served besides NY and Chicago?
> >2. Was there an LCL station on the Jersey side, and if so, where?
> > (Perhaps Pavonia?)
> >3. Westbound traffic was handled by NY-99; photos generally show a
> > headend block of forwarder boxcars. Eastbound traffic supposedly
> > went on NY-100; why do you not see these boxcars on
> photos of this
> >train?
> > (handled on the rear, perhaps?)
> >4. Finally, why did EL continue to handle some LCL this way
> long after
> >other
> > roads had shifted to TOFC?
> >
> >Paul Brezicki
> >
>
>
>
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