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From: Daniel McFadden dan DOT mcfadden AT gmail DOT com
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:46:12 -0400
Subject: Re: (erielack) MU club cars
"19720628-011-Morristown-RED.jpg" - image/jpeg, 2000x1333 (24bit)

Bruce and List,

It must be the case that we are looking at totally different time periods. Mike Dodge referenced a January 1949 article and that was the period I was looking at.

I just looked again at ETT’s for both April 49 (ETT 95) and April 55 (ETT 107) and see first that there was a scheduled extra (X51) that ran just from Morristown to Morris Plains with the notation “Equipment for No. 510”, leaving Morristown at 7 AM, arriving Morris Plains 7:06 AM. Train 510 is shown leaving Morris Plains at 7:17 AM. Finally, Train 501 was not a rush hour train at that time as it departed Hoboken at 12:50 AM.

The train numbers were seriously shuffled by the time I was old enough to pay attention. The period I am really familiar with (no ETT needed) begins summer 1960. I had a mini commute that summer from Morris Plains to Madison for a job at Drew. I usually took train 604, the solo 13 car MU. When we got to Morristown, I would usually see train 501 (now a rush hour train) backing an express car down into the siding. This train had 8 MU cars, the hindmost being parlor 2453, with the car of express tacked on at the end. Then this 8 car MU would then cross over into the yard and pick up the last 4 cars in the yard. That equipment went east as 12 car Train 508. Note that the parlor car did not overnight in Morristown; I suspect this was to avoid vandalism.

Attached is a shot of Train 508 in later EL years with renumbered 3453 in the lead.

Dan



On 9/16/15, 12:18 AM, "BJBreeman" wrote:

>Train 510 was a turn off train 501, i.e. not a Morristown start.
>502,504,506,and 508 were Morristown starts. Four trains in during the
>morning rush and 5 trains back at night during the evening rush. A six
>car train and a four car evening train made up train 504 the next day, a
>ten car train.
>Bruce Breeman
>
>On 9/15/2015 11:27 PM, Robert Bahrs wrote:
>> Dan
>> I couldn't figure out the 510 either, Good catch on the miss print.
>> Per the DL&W equipment books, both the 51 & the 55 were converted back to
>> coaches by 1950, so something changed after that.
>> Not sure if it was a renumbering or .................??
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 8:12 PM, Daniel McFadden
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Bob, Mike, & List,
>>>
>>> I am guessing we have a small misprint here for car 2450 as 510 would be a
>>> Morristown train and 633 a Dover train. I think it might be Trains 610 and
>>> 633 for this car.
>>>
>>> Also, would this imply that 2451 and 2455 were backup equipment or not
>>> around in the 40’s?. As noted earlier, I saw these two cars regularly
>>> running together on Train 612 in 1960.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/15/15, 7:31 PM, "Robert Bahrs" wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>> Great information on the exact trains they were used on. What was the
>>> car
>>>> that got trucked south about a year or two ago?
>>>>
>>>> Bob Bahrs
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Mike Dodge
>>> wrote:
>>>>> Some additional info on these cars in response to some of the questions
>>>>> asked over the past few days...
>>>>>
>>>>> According to the January 1949 issue of the Electric Railroaders
>>>>> Association's "Headlights", which contained an article on the
>>> Lackawanna's
>>>>> electric operations, the four Club Cars in service at that time
>>>>> were #2450, assigned to trains #510 and #633, #2452 on trains #508 and
>>>>> #527, #2453 on trains #510 and #533 and #2454 on trains #410 and #429.
>>>>>
>>>>> When the Whippany Railway Museum acquired the 2454 for restoration, Pat
>>>>> McKnight graciously pulled all the possibly relevant material in the
>>>>> Steamtown archives for us to examine. While I did find the original
>>> Barney
>>>>> and Smith specification sheets for cars 480-484, I was not able to find
>>> the
>>>>> spec sheets created in conjunction with their conversion to MU service
>>> (I
>>>>> did see that such sheets for the converted combines did exist in the
>>>>> files). According to other documents I found, the railroad also
>>> referred to
>>>>> them as the T-4 specifications, and should anyone ever come across
>>> them, we
>>>>> at Whippany would love to see a copy.
>>>>>
>>>>> The leaded glass windows were left in place during the conversion to MU
>>>>> service. A steel panel was installed covering the exterior and a wooden
>>> one
>>>>> covering the interior. Although the Museum is working towards
>>>>> restoring the car to it's 1930's appearance, these painted windows will
>>> be
>>>>> left exposed.
>>>>>
>>>>> The O&W Museum in Roscoe, NY, acquired a one-time Club Car which they
>>> made
>>>>> into their "Trout Car". It has the exterior panels covering the upper
>>> part
>>>>> of the window openings similar to what 2454 had,
>>>>> but it lacks the diamond windows on the ends, thus I believe making this
>>>>> the ex-2451.
>>>>>
>>>>> The work on 2454 is currently underway at the URHS facility in Boonton,
>>>>> NJ. For anyone interested, the URHS will be holding their annual public
>>>>> open house there this coming Sunday from 10am until 5pm.
>>>>> As part of the program, guests will be able to walk around the car and
>>>>> representatives from the Whippany Railway Museum will available to talk
>>>>> about it. For friends of Smiley, URHS-owned Erie SW9 436
>>>>> will also be present.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Dodge
>>>>>
>>>>> From Archives@Railfan.net
>>>>> Message-ID: <
>>>>> CAGcZs4YqcgAMhpNvfcr6Ps3b5RORGmfUHbhi-QF83A+iGa03hg@mail.gmail.com>
>>>>> Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 23:54:14 -0400
>>>>> From: Robert Bahrs
>>>>> Subject: Re: (erielack) MU club cars (was:) DL&W Parlor Car #2454)
>>>>>
>>>>> This is all explained in
>>>>>> my show "* ONE LAST LOOK *" which I know was given once at an ELHS
>>>>> convention and at one ARHS convention years ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> Never saw it.. maybe a reprise is in order? :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Originally there were six cars 2450-2455 converted in 1930 by AC&F
>>> from
>>>>>> coaches 480-484 and 647 Two cars 2451 & 2455 got converted back to
>>>>>> commuter coaches.
>>>>> I think you have the number wrong: 2451 became EL 3451, which was one of
>>>>> the three club cars in service to the end (3451, 3453,
>>>>> 3454). Was it 2450 that was rebuilt into a coach? (and what number did
>>> it
>>>>> become)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Both my 1942 and 1950 DL&W Diagram books list them as I stated. I know
>>> the
>>>>> EL Diagram book just lumps all four together as 2451-2454, thus I think
>>>>> they may have renumbered the 50 to the 51 IF the EL book is correct.
>>>>> Obviously one car disappeared, and IF the EL book is correct it was the
>>> 50.
>>>>> Here's a question: I think 2450-2454 all had the diamond window for the
>>>>> bathrooms (I think?). Why didn't the 2455 have that? Was the
>>>>> 2455 built later, as it lacked the fancy glass above the windows?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, I think one of the four subscription cars in service towards the end
>>>>> didn't have the diamond windows. The 55 was a Boonton Line coach,
>>>>> converted and then reconverted back to a coach way before the merger
>>> and it
>>>>> too never had the diamond windows.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The 2455 was about 4' shorter than the other five, having been
>>> converted
>>>>>> from a standard Boonton Line coach which were 70' 3/4" over buffers,
>>> The
>>>>>> others being 74' 5" over buffers. After the EL merger these cars got
>>> the
>>>>> first digit renumbered from a 2 to a 3. One of the four
>>>>>> remaining cars did not have the diamond windows at the end, but with
>>> out
>>>>> going through a lot notes I forget which one that is.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's the 3451 (formerly 2451) that didn't have the diamond window.
>>>>> When/why did it lose the window(s)? I have an as-delivered shot
>>>>> that shows the car had a diamond window at each end.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would tend to think, a renumbering of the 50 to 51, before I would
>>> think
>>>>> they would have gone to the trouble of replacing four separate windows,
>>> but
>>>>> unless more documented information surfaces, it gets added to the
>>>>> 10,000 question list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just looked and I have a Dan McFadden photo of the 3451 in Hoboken with
>>> out
>>>>> the diamond windows. This again leads me to think they moved the 50
>>>>> become the 51 to keep all four batched consecutively, but that's just my
>>>>> suspicion.
>>>>> Time to go to bed!
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>> Thanks for the info!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
>>>>> http://EL-List.railfan.net/
>>>>> To Unsubscribe: http://Lists.Railfan.net/erielackunsub.html
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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>>
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>
>
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