Erie Lackawanna
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From: Roger Clare roger DOT clare AT gmail DOT com
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 15:00:36 -0400
Subject: Re: (erielack) Re: Steamtown #C1687 - Signal 2791, Bath NY, 1913
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Some thoughts on signals--

I think that the casting which held the lenses must have been a standard
part, and was used also as a train order signal. I doubt the DL&W part
could be used as an upper quadrant signal as it could only be used
through about a 60 degree angle.

Found this diagram on www.railroadsignals.us, showing the unused space
(on 2-aspect 3-lens signal) containing a red lens.

Some older C-series photos seem to show the use of lens holders which
only had space for two lenses.

The counterweight in C1646 would have the advantage of compensating for
snow or ice buildup on the signal arm, as opposed to using a short arm
with a heavy weight. I have not been able to find another example of this.

Roger Clare


On 10/6/2015 7:18 AM, Larry DeYoung wrote:
> NOTE: This message had contained at least one image attachment.
> To view or download the image(s), click on or cut and paste the
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>
> http://lists.railfan.net/listthumb.cgi?erielack-10-06-15
>
> C1687.jpg (image/jpeg, 164x320 11456 bytes, BF: 4.58 ppb)
>
>
> Thanks, Bob. Interesting exchange. Abe was coming to the conclusion that it is a blank, too. Then came the question why the space was there? As you suggest, maybe it was a "standard" part that also could be used as a train order signal, etc.?
>
> Larry
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 5, 2015, at 9:24 PM, Dlw1el2@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> I don't have solid answers, but I can add this. Per the 1918 Rule book, all diagrams show a standard 3 lens semaphore, but Abe is correct in that only two indications were displayed via lower Quadrant signals. So, my guess, and guess only, is that the center lens was opaque, and not used. So why was it even there? Humm. Was this part of a semaphore reversible, in that if turned, could be used on an upper quadrant signal? Was it a massed produced part that was universally used on both upper and lower? No answers here.
>>
>> Was told by one of my mentors that there was an article way back in Railroad Man Magazine, that explained why the white went away. He thought it dealt with a wick being turned up to high, thus the heat cracking a red lens, which in a storm fell out, resulting in a train running a red signal with a head on collision becoming the results. 1901 seem to stick in his memory, but he didn't even know where this happened. I asked if it was up to each RR to change on their own, or if it was an industry wide change, He could not say, but leaned towards it being an industry change.
>>
>>
>> All I can offer is:
>> In a RULES of Automatic Electric and Interlocking Signals for the DL&W, 1894, the white indication is given.
>> In a INSTRUCTION for Automatic Block and Interlocking SIGNALS, DL&W, Dec 16, 1900 the green is already being used.
>>
>> Bob Bahrs
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 10/5/2015 5:31:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, larry.deyoung@verizon.net writes:
>>
>>
>> Does anyone have answers to any of Abram’s questions below? I surely don’t.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>> From: кириллъославъ бериновъ /Abram Burnett
>>> Subject: Fwd: Steamtown #C1687 - Signal 2791, Bath NY, 1913
>>> Date: October 2, 2015 at 5:19:16 PM EDT
>>>
>>> Do any of you know of locations, on your respective railroads, where THREE-position Lower Quadrant Semaphores were used?
>>>
>>> Note trailing correspondence, and photo at bottom of correspondence.
>>>
>>> The photograph in question, should you wish to see the whole thing, is at:
>>>
>>> http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-10-01-15/C1687.jpg
>>>
>>> -- adb
>>> From: "кириллъославъ бериновъ /Abram Burnett"
>>> To: "Erie Lackawanna List"
>>> Sent: Friday, October 2, 2015 5:10:14 PM
>>> Subject: Steamtown #C1687 - Signal 2791, Bath, 1913
>>>
>>> Photo C1687 shows an potentially curious Lower Quadrant ("LQ") Semaphore Signal, Signal No. 2791, near Bath, NY.
>>>
>>> "LQ" Semaphores were, almost without exception, capable of showing only TWO aspects: Horizontal for Stop, and "hanging down" or "nearly vertical" for Clear. The "nearly vertical" limitation was because the signals lacked a motor which was capable of driving the semaphore arm to full vertical position. And because there was no "room" for an intermediate 45-degree position, without such being confused with the "hanging down/nearly vertical" position, the 45 degree position was almost never used on LQ semaphores. Motorized, three-position Upper Quadrant semaphores were developed and patented in 1903 by Leonore F. Loree and Frank Patenall, and it was the motor which made the UQ semaphore capable of three aspects. Signal 2791, in this picture, is not a Loree motorized semaphore.
>>>
>>> In Steamtown image #C1687, both semaphore arms are "hanging down," indicating that both the first and second blocks beyond the signal are clear.
>>>
>>> Here is the mystery: Signal 2791 is an LQ signal, but has >> THREE << glass roundels in the spectacle. What gives? Why is a signal capable of only TWO aspects equipped with THREE roundels, as if she were a bonafide three-aspect signal?
>>>
>>> Can someone consult a Lackawanna Rule Book of the appropriate era, and see how many positions a Lackawanna LQ semaphore was capable of assuming?
>>>
>>> For extra credit, can someone tell me when the Lackawanna converted the colors on its signals from Red, Green (for caution) and White (for clear,) to the presently accepted standard of Red-Yellow-Green ?
>>>
>>> -- abram burnett,
>>> Morse Telegrapher
>>>
>>> =========================
>>> Sent to You from my Telegraph Key
>>> ... better than AT&T 4G LTE
>>> ========================
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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